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Clamps,Clamps, Clamps, whats the difference? [Archive]

02 Jul.,2024

Clamps,Clamps, Clamps, whats the difference? [Archive]

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For more information, please visit german clamps.

Jack Wilson

I recently purchased some Bessy clamps, (famous name), from Loew's, they were roughly $20 ea. Yesterday I was walking thru Home Depot, & decided to just check out the clamps. WOW, Jorgenson has almost the same clamp for roughly $11 ea. If you didn't notice, that's almost 1/2 price!

Lastly I have a bunch of 3/4" black pipe clamps. I have included pictures of the Bessy and Jorgenson, so we are all on the same page.;) I'm sure you all know what the pony pipe clamps look like.

So whats the difference? The Bessy clamp has small ridges in the bar to catch, the Jorgensons just bite into the bar much as a pipe clamp does, and there is the pipe clamps. Are any one better than the others? Are they all pretty much the same? Is all preference? What do you all think?

Thanks

Mark Engel

There are different grades of clamps with various clamping strengths. Jorgenson makes light duty, medium and heavy duty clamps with 300, 600 and (I think) lbs sq/in of clamping strength.

Also check the bar thickness and width. Some of the lower end clamps will flex more when under load.

David DeCristoforo

John Denture

Besseys are (IMMHO) the best. They are available in different "duty ratings". So are the Jorgensens. The Jorgies are good quality but I think the Besseys have them beat. I really like the fact that the Besseys do not use clutch plates which makes them a bit easier to adjust. There are tons of imitators, most of which are of lessor quality, something that is often reflected in the price. Bessey is a German company. Jorgensens are made by Adjustable Clamp Company. Both have been family owned businesses since the turn of the last century.

Sadly, the "Bessey" clamps sold at Lowes are made in China. When they first started carrying the line, they were made in Germany, but all of the product that replaced the initial stockage came from China. The funny thing is the reason I caught this initially was from the enormous fit and finish difference between the Chinese and German clamps. Don't stop at looks- check out the tolerance difference. Frightening.

I'd like some more Bessey clamps, but at this point I don't know if they're all being made in China, or it's just the "special" line for Lowes so they can make a bit of extra profit.

Home Depot has actually been making an effort to carry some higher spec products recently, while Lowes has been busy replacing entire categories of products (from blades to clamps to electrical to plumbing) with Chinese imports of the basest quality.

David DeCristoforo

"...the "Bessey" clamps sold at Lowes are made in China..."

Ahhhh... China. Is there no end to the indignity?

James Baker SD

I bought a pair of Bessey's very similar to the ones in your photo yesterday at a real lumberyard. They are German made.

James

johnny means

I recently bought two 30 piece Bessey clamp sets. I haven't bothered looking at where they were made, but I did notice that they were of excellent quality. Got mine from my local supply truck guy.

Jack Wilson

I bought a pair of Bessey's very similar to the ones in your photo yesterday at a real lumberyard. They are German made.

James

The ones from Loew's are 12" clamps, mind if I ask the size and price of those which you purchased?

Glen Butler

OP also mentioned pony pipe clamps. Which one is better kinda depends on what you are doing. I use the ones pictured above for face joining two boards, gluing smaller pieces, box knewels. I use ponies to glue up panels. Not really the same classification in clamp, so not a fair comparison.

John Coloccia

My shop is full of Jorg's, Besseys, Ponys, and other off brand stuff. I like them all, to be honest. A clamp is a simple piece of machinery to get right. The Besseys are a bit smoother than all the rest. They're a bit more expensive. I'm not sure it's worth the extra $$$.

The thing is, though, that clamps pretty much last a lifetime. If you have the $$$, it may not be a bad investment to buy the best clamps you can. Over 30 or 40 years, the extra couple of bucks won't add up to a whole lot. I guess it depends on how many clamps you really need, and what you're doing with them.

I really like my Home Depot Jorgs, and I have a LOT of clamps. The price point is right for what I'm doing. Then again, I have some Besseys so they must have something going for them too!

For glue ups on flat pieces, like when I'm gluing up a guitar top or something like that, I like pipe clamps.

There's lots of nice clamps out there, and lots of price points. I would say maybe buy a sampling, and figure out where your personal tolerance is for price vs niceness.

James Baker SD

The ones from Loew's are 12" clamps, mind if I ask the size and price of those which you purchased?

I am afraid I do not know clamp terminology well, but the adjustable jaw can be moved 24" from the fixed jaw along the bar and the clamping screw is 7" from the bar. They were $38 each at TH&H in San Diego.

Hope that is the info you wanted.

James

Scott Vantine

I like the "Pony" pipe clamps, but for bar clamps, like the Bessey "Tradesman" clamp. I like the way the Bessey "Tradesman" clamp adjusts without the use of clutch plates, so that I don't need three hands to operate it. I find the "pony" pipe clamp to be tough and put together well. The plus there is also the reversible deep reach clamp in the "pony" line, which is great if you need spreading strength. I like pipe clamps in general because I can clamp whatever length needed just by adding another section of pipe w/ coupler!''

I don't care for the grips on the "Jorgies", they appear to be hard to get a grip on!

Dave Lehnert

As far as that style of clamp, I have the Dark Blue clamps from Harbor Freight (pic below) and they work very well. I like them a lot. I have some gray ones from HF and they are junk for the most part.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/-/.gif

I have some Bessy clamps. Even the parallel and think they are all over rated.

I picked up one of the new Jorgenson clamps below to try out. They are fantastic for clamping things quick to the work bench. It is an all metal clamp. Just don't get them from Woodcraft. They want double price for them.
http://www.adjustableclamp.com/_pg.htm

http://www.adjustableclamp.com/inu.jpg

Brian W Evans

I'll add my vote for the besseys. They are just well-made. I also own some jorgensons and have no regrets, even though they are not my first choice.

I was given some sears clamps a while back and they are nearly worthless - they slip, the handles are hard to grip, and the plastic pads leave stains on your material. Short of falling apart, I'm hard pressed to see how they could be worse. I gave them to my 5 year old to play with outside. They're apparently good for clamping rocks, sticks, and mud together - so, not a total waste, I guess. :rolleyes:

You get what you pay for, most of the time.

Darnell Hagen

I've used both, I prefer the Besseys.

The clutch plate on the Jorg's skin my knuckes.

You can see in the photo's the Bessey bar is much thicker, and shaped like an I-beam. I can flex the Jorg's bar.

Jorg's clap pads suck. They fall off and leave oil stains.

You can get edge banding clamps that attach to the Besseys.

All complaining aside, the Jorg's are very good clamps. Sometimes the clutch comes in handy, the head stays secured while the Bessey slides around. They are a very close runner-up, if you aren't using them all the time they make sense economically.

Chuck Tringo

I picked up one of the new Jorgenson clamps below to try out. They are fantastic for clamping things quick to the work bench. It is an all metal clamp. Just don't get them from Woodcraft. They want double price for them.
http://www.adjustableclamp.com/_pg.htm

Where did you get your gear clamps ? I see Grizzly has them for about 40% less than woodcraft, was wondering if anyone else is carrying them. Amazon has the Bessey kliclamp which are similar 4 for $70, but their clamp mechanism is resin (fancy name for plastic IMHO) so I wanted to wait for a good price on the Jorgies

Dave Lehnert

Where did you get your gear clamps ? I see Grizzly has them for about 40% less than woodcraft, was wondering if anyone else is carrying them. Amazon has the Bessey kliclamp which are similar 4 for $70, but their clamp mechanism is resin (fancy name for plastic IMHO) so I wanted to wait for a good price on the Jorgies

I picked up my clamp at Hartville Hardware on a trip through Northern Ohio. Not sure if they have them on-line or the price they show. Not sure exactly what I paid but the 8" was just under $20.
I think I remember seeing them on the Sears website also.

Jack Wilson

I've used both, I prefer the Besseys.
You can see in the photo's the Bessey bar is much thicker, and shaped like an I-beam. I can flex the Jorg's bar.

Yes the Bessys are sort of I beamed, but the Jorgs are just as heavy, and in the 12" length that I have, I can't flex Jorgs the beam. There are also lighter weight clamps, HD pricing structure is bizarre, for the same price I can buy the light weight clamp or the heavier model, and for pennies more I could step up from 12" to 24" & as I recall it seems that only a few dollars more buys the 36". I would have probably gone for the 24" but under the circumstances, 12" was more appropriate for this project, 24" would have been in the way.

Mark Woodmark

I am slowly replacing my Bessey K-bodys with Jet bar clamps of the same style. The clamping surfaces are larger, the bar is easier to clean glue off of, and the handle is easier on the hands. I have had one Bessy break between the internal threads and where the metal part rides on the bar. Also I have had two Besseys strip the internal threads. All the Besseys that broke were not the newer Revo style. I have not read or personally heard good things about this style Jorgenson clamp. I would research the Jorgs before buying them

Steve Walls

John A langley

Jack Wilson

Erwin makes a clamp a lot like the one you guys are talking about. The thing I like about them is they have a rubber coating on the handle and it is a lot easier for me to tighten and untighten with arthritis in both hands.

I looked up the Irwin specs for their F body clamps, and Jorgs, Irwin rates thiers @ lbs pressure, Jorgs rate out @ 300 lbs. What a difference! No info on the Bessys

John Denture

I looked up the Irwin specs for their F body clamps, and Jorgs, Irwin rates thiers @ lbs pressure, Jorgs rate out @ 300 lbs. What a difference! No info on the Bessys

Jorgensen (Adjustable Clamp) makes a variety of different clamps.

Their LIGHT duty clamps are rated at 300 lbs, their normal duty ( series) at 600 lbs, their series medium duty and HD at 1,000 lbs, and their series with wingnuts instead of wooden handles is rated at 2,000 lbs.

You just need to choose the proper clamp for your application...

Tom Godley

I also have a bunch of the Jet clamps all purchased when the major mail order places have them on sale -- all different styles.

I have found them to be well made.

Jack Wilson

One more trip to Loews, the Bessy clamps ARE made in GERMANY,at least the tradesman 12" units I was looking at. Clamping pressure at 6" is 880 lbs. I purchased the Jorg series HD clamps which I read elsewhere in this thread has a max pressure of 600 lbs. I am sure that will be fine for what I am doing, and again almost 1/2 price of the Bessy clamps. Sorry to for you guys that skin your knuckles on the Jorgs. I guess I have sissy hands, they fit right in there fine, no skin lost. :)

Cody Colston

I have a bunch of those type Jorgensen clamps. They are okay for light duty clamping but the bar flexes a lot if you really screw them down tight. The only Bessey's I have are the parallel bar clamps and they are first rate IMHO.

Steve Peterson

I like the fact that the Jorgensen heavy duty clamps at HD are made in the USA. They claim lbs of clamping force.

The next step up would be the series "I" bar clamps with lbs of force and a crank (instead of a screwdriver handle). Grizzly has them for about twice the price as the series at HD. I may pick up a couple for when something needs to be really clamped. I have never seen the "I" clamps at any local stores.

Of course, parallel clamps are a different style, but at an even higher price point.

Steve

Dave Sepucha

I have a handful of the Jorgs the OP posted. (No experience with the Besseys). In general I really line the Jorgs except for this...

"Jorg's clap pads suck. They fall off and leave oil stains."

I haven't had them fall off, but they do stain like crazy. I'm already sloppy enough as it is, I don't need help from my clamps.

Gerry Rhodes

As far as that style of clamp, I have the Dark Blue clamps from Harbor Freight (pic below) and they work very well. I like them a lot. I have some gray ones from HF and they are junk for the most part.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/-/.gif

Personally, I think clamps are clamps. I have some of everybodys. They clamp. Nuff said. I particularly like these that I got from Garret Wade. http://www.garrettwade.com/12-in-fast-clamps-5/p/05R08.01/ My 2d.

Michael MacDonald

Jay Jeffery

so is there any rule of thumb for which style to use? f-clamp or parallel-jaw-clamp?

I have a bunch of parallel-jaw, and a few of the irwin quick grips... I also bought four orange quick-grip-style from HF... (with handles that bend and a small plastic button for release.. they are harbor frightful, but cheap). I don't have any f-clamps yet. how about those wooden handscrews... any suggestions on what a good clamp herd looks like for building stuff like tables, bookcases, benches, beds, etc...

Parallel clamps are really only good for woodworking, but they do a wonderful job of squeezing out glue with a lot of force, while not messing up the surface. They can be award to handle sometimes. They are an expensive specialty clamp, but they do such a good job at what they do, you cannot have enough of them.

Heavy-duty F clamps and C-clamps are more versatile and are great for things beyond just gluing wood. They can clamp around things, are great for holding pieces down, gluing them together and a variety of other tasks. Many vehicles require a good C-clamp to change out brake pads. You can't just put the pads right on wood and expect them to leave it looking good. If you want a mark-free clamping experience you have to use a block or caul of some kind, or at least a rubber pad. A good selection of these is an important part of any tool set, but a woodworker need not go overboard.

Smaller F-clamps and C-clamps are great for small projects. I got a 15 pc set of really cheap Bessey clamps (http://www.lowes.com/pd_--B-CS12_0_?productId=&Ntt=bessey%20clamps&Ntk=i_products&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?newSearch=true$Ntt=bessey%20clamps$y=0$x= 0) at Lowes a few years ago for $20. They aren't any better than the good HF clamps. But having many clamps usually means more than having a few nice ones, and often a light clamp is all you need. Some projects aren't big enough to support 15 pounds of steel.

Those wooden clamps are great for clamping irregular angles, but they are awkward for most applications.

Lee Schierer

The best clamps are the ones you have when you need them and they get the job done. Pressure is pressure no matter which clamp applies it. Go with what your budget allows.

Kent A Bathurst

so is there any rule of thumb for which style to use? f-clamp or parallel-jaw-clamp? ...

No rule of thumb, in IMO, you use whatcha got. Some styles are better than others for specific applications, but when I got started, I got a dozen or so Pony 3/4" pipe clamp sets, plus a buncha black pipe at different lengths from 24" to 96". $$ was the main driver. With a good set of cauls (do a search here - you'll see a lot of good info on making your own, and a coupla food fights) the pipe clamps did me well in everything, including repro Stickley bookcases.

Now, of course, I got a number of all types. My experience, FWIW - cheap clamps don't save you $$, they waste $$. I found this out at the absolute worst possible time - in the middle of a mission-critical glue-up.

Contact us to discuss your requirements of clamp with handle. Our experienced sales team can help you identify the options that best suit your needs.

Jack Wilson

Was in loews again today and checked a little more, some of the Bessy clamps are from China, while others are from Germany.

Tony Shea

Jorgenson are probably my favorites, especially the parrallel bar clamp. I think Jorgenson parallels are made much better than the Bessey's and the sliding mechanism doesn't let free like the Bessey's do. I honestly hate handling my Bessey parallels as the jaws are constantly slaming open without operating the open mechanism. The Jorgy's are much better. As for F clamps, the price is the only reason for liking the Jorgs better. The Bessey's are nice but not enough to make me spend more for them. They both do the job just as well with no smashed knuckles like I get from the Bessey parallels. Yes I hate them.

Michael MacDonald

Neil Brooks

Kent A Bathurst

yeah... I think I need to get a few of the pipe clamp sets... I will need to glue up a 80" bench in the next few weeks, and don't have the clamps for it now... thanks for the tips...

Well, Michael - let me tell you the end game....just a sec..........had to go around the corner to count.......there we go..... You can obviously move the ponies from pipe-to-pipe, as project + size changes. I have accumulated 28 different pipe sections in 4 lengths, and sometime over the last 12 years some lazy b*$*&#d went and bought ponies for all of them - hanging on the rack with the 10 Bessy + Gross stabil parallels - and all the F-style, C-clamps, handscrews, quik-clamps........where in the heck did all of those come from??? Who let that guy in the shop????:D

John Harden

+1 to the guys who say buy what you need. I must have 50 Bessey K body's for glue ups of panels, etc. They're my favorite, but they're expensive. I picked up a bunch on sale at WW shows, etc., which made them more affordable.

Recently I needed a whole mess of 6" F clamps for some bent lamination work. Bought about 80 of them from Harbor Freight for $1.99 apiece. You can't beat that price and their new, updated design with the rubber handles is WAY better than their old design, where the clamp head would often slip. They've performed great for me. Not a problem with a single one of them.

Regards,

John

Rod Sheridan

I have many Bessey K body clamps and some Jorgensen pipe clamps.

The Bessey clamps are the go to clamps, the pipe clamps are for when I run out of Bessey clamps.......Rod.

Anthony Scott

Well, that didn't take long to devolve in to China bashing.

"...the "Bessey" clamps sold at Lowes are made in China..."

Ahhhh... China. Is there no end to the indignity?

Igor Petrenko

Tony Shea

If you have any of the Besseys ... and you want to get rid of them ... I'm here for you :)

I actually already pawned them off on my buddy who is starting to come to the same conclusion about them as I did. I just love the Jorgs' CabinetMasters and think they're the cats ass! Really one of the best designed clamps out there. And I read a review, PWW mag i believe, that rated these clamps as one of the best. They seemed to feel the same way as I did about the Bessy K body's. They just have a poor latch in the relaxed posistion. They do work well other than that feature.

I was at Lowes today and checked out their Bessy stock and noticed they had both the German made and China made styles. Odviously the German mades were much nicer. My point being is that the China Bessey's have completely abandoned the original Bessey design that incorporates a clutch free system. They all have the metal clutch similar to most other F style clamps. Which IMO doesn't deserve to where Bessey's name as they aren't even the same style F clamp. I was fairly dissapointed that Bessey puts their name to these. Oh well, child labor sells I guess.

John Denture

Those are fantastic. Pure HF gem no quality sacrificed. Next time they run a sale I will get 50x more of those.

I just looked at those the other day- they have so much play in the slider that the two jaws can be displaced by 1/2 of the diameter of the pads- this would be a nightmare as the jaws aren't clamping parallel anymore. Glue-ups already require three hands- having to align the clamp while tightening it down is ridiculous.

I also noticed that out of 5 I pulled off the rack, two of them had sticky clutches that wouldn't stay engaged (probably burrs from poor castings or stampings).

Not only that, they wanted $6.00 for an 18" clamp, which is half the price of a Jorgensen.

No thanks.

Neil Brooks

I actually already pawned them off on my buddy who is starting to come to the same conclusion about them as I did. I just love the Jorgs' CabinetMasters and think they're the cats ass! Really one of the best designed clamps out there. And I read a review, PWW mag i believe, that rated these clamps as one of the best.

Here I was ... humble ... hat in hand ... looking for a freebie, and ... I think you just ended up costing me money :D

Sexy little numbers ... ayup ... they are.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/graphics/photos/tools/jorgyclmprvu/spreadtoo400.jpg

You can never have too many.....

Maurice Metzger

LOL, that's a great thread ender.

Reo Fendel

No rule of thumb, in IMO, you use whatcha got. Some styles are better than others for specific applications, but when I got started, I got a dozen or so Pony 3/4" pipe clamp sets, plus a buncha black pipe at different lengths from 24" to 96". $$ was the main driver. With a good set of cauls (do a search here - you'll see a lot of good info on making your own, and a coupla food fights) the pipe clamps did me well in everything, including repro Stickley bookcases.

I'm with you. I've had 4 fourty inch K Body parallels & they've sat in the corner of my shop for twenty some years gathering cob webs. lbs of pressure?? ...with wooden handles? Give me a break (or a broken hand). The Pony 3/4" pipes are THE ones I always go to when you need to crank with a lot less effort. And with cauls and good joints, they're every bit as square as any parallel. At fifty bucks a pop for the K Bodies, you can have 4 Ponys at any length, and much better leverage. Go with Wetzler or Hartford if you need heavy duty F clamps, they can't be beat.

Rick Fisher

K-Body Clamps are IMO the top of the food chain. I own a bunch of Bessy's but also own 2 x yellow Stanleys.. The Stanley's are cheap knock off's but awesome as well.

Jorgies, Jets.. They are the full sized pickup of the hand clamp.. All good stuff

Dave Cav

The best advice I can give is to have a lot of them. I just counted; I have 57 pipe/bar clamps (53 mixed Harbor Freight, Jorgy, Sears, no brand..., 2 48" K bodies I got with a router on CL and 2 old school I beam clamps), about 3 dozen F clamps (mostly H.F. dark blue but a few Jorgy), about 2 dozen C clamps, a half dozen wood handscrews and about 2 or 3 dozen spring clamps. They all get used in one way or another, and sometimes I run out or low on F clamps and have to improvise.

Yeah, some of the high end/heavy duty I beam clamps will give you pounds of clamping force, but, generally speaking, If you need pounds of clamping force, you're doing something wrong.

Mike Heidrick

Clamp Porn

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/jlt.jpg

http://mysite.ncnetwork.net/resoh894/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/panflat.jpg

Lonnie Gallaher

I just watched a video by William Ng. I was surprised to see that most of the clamps used were the blue Harbor Freight F-clamps. I am also surprised when I watch some videos and see nothing but brand new tools. It causes me to wonder if the presenter has ever used the tools other than to do the video.

I come from a steel fabrication back ground where having a clamp that will pull over a pounds is essential, but in woodworking it is not. A lot of my clamps come from my steel fabrication days with many more from yard sales and thrift stores, a few came from HD when they still sold Jorgies, but now the main stay is best deal in town - the lowly Harbor Freight clamp.

A word of caution to those who buy HF clamps, they need to be inspected before purchase. Make sure the castings are accurate and symmetrical and that the screw hole is drilled straight and true to the clamp axis. I always close the clamps after use so that the plastic pads do not come off and get lost. HF does not have replacements available.

Mark Walden

Quality clamps have Acme threads on them. Look at the tops of the threads if they are flat the is Acme, if the are pointed that is standard threads. The standard threads are faster and cheaper to make,
but the points wear off quickly and you get a lot of play in the handle.
Mark Walden

MJ-Miniatures- German Army 1/35 WWII Clamp Tool Set

1/35 WW2 German Army Tool Clamps

Every so often a new product arrives which will prove to be a game-changer.

And so it is with these 3D printed tool clamps from MJ-Miniatures. These will, I feel sure, become a default for any modeler wanting to improve a kit or scratch-build their own vehicle.

German vehicles &#; whether armoured vehicles, soft skins, or even wagons, tend to use a standardised form of tool clamps to secure a whole range of items from spades to tow ropes, from track links to cleaning rods. For many years, kit manufacturers have been slowly improving the quality of moulded clamps in plastic kits, but the default has always been to make these up from tiny pieces of etched brass. Indeed, etched brass tool clamps have become infamous for their complexity and fiddly nature.

This new product from MJ-Miniatures has the potential to be a complete game-changer. The set consists of an array of 3D printed clamps of different types, produced in eye-watering detail and accuracy. There are 120 clamps of the type used on tools, 32 clamps for five cleaning rods. 32 clamps of the type used to retain tow cables, and 32 clamps used to retain tools such as &#;S&#; hooks and the like. The detail is incredible, right down to the wing-nuts being at different positions, so that the clamps don&#;t all look the same.

Each clamp is slightly raised up from the base sheet, so that a sharp blade (I recommend a razor blade) can be slid under the clamp to separate it. The part can then be attached to the model using superglue or other adhesive. The end result is simply breath-taking, and of course the kit tools can simply be inserted into the clamps.

I can see so many uses for these items. A lot of kits - particularly older ones - have poor, crude representations of the clamps used on German vehicles. I have myself often made up brass versions in order to improve a kit or to add details that were missing. Quite often, the etched brass parts were too big for the tools, and looked plain silly. Other times, the brass parts were too delicate and were difficult to assemble and stick onto the model. Suddenly, we have an alternative, where the tool handle needs to be pushed into the 3D printed item, and then stuck onto the model. Simple!

There are enough parts to equip a dozen models, although the cleaning-rod clamps for five rods are, I'm told, only really suitable for Tiger II models. All of the other clamps are suitable for any German vehicle.

I have no words to recommend these higher. They are sensational, and to my mind they will become standard in the same way that Hornet Heads are used by figure modelers. I ordered my set by mail-order and they arrived in a very short time, and the producer is keen to help on . I'm sure that there will be local stockists, but at the time of writing, it is easier to contact MJ directly. See their website www.mj-miniatures.co.kr

Very Highly Recommended for Beginner to Advanced builders.

Thanks goes out to MJ-Miniatures for this review kit.

Reviewed by Chris Lloyd-Staples, AMPS London, 2VP (International)

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includes six copies of AMPS's magazine, Boresight,
and helps to support our ongoing reviews.

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